Talk:Rule Set Parameters

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Permadeath flamewar^H^H^H discussion

Bring your indestructible encounter suit and throw yourself into this lethal argument:

If advancement is fast (e.g. No levels, Restricted maximum skill points per character), and if you got to keep at your contacts list and identity (and probably organization memberships?), but lost your skills and gear, then it could work. The game would be different, but it could be interesting.

--zzorn 11:16, 12 March 2006 (CET)

What is permadeath? It's a complete and utter loss of a character. Everything is gone. Organization memberships are gone too of course (if you don't do org memberships based on the player instead of a character, but that's not RP as far as I'm concerned)

--Jae 13:09, 12 March 2006 (CET)

If organization memberships, your contact list, and your identity changes at every death, you will not be able to build social networks. No old buddies to team up with, no way to keep track of annoying persons you don't want to team up with, and in general no reason to behave decently and be polite, as you are even more anonymous than a Counter Strike player (who at least maintains the same nickname between play sessions). Granted, the life length may be a little bit longer than a CS plyaer, but still only something like a few weeks on average (assuming PvP combat is as an important activity in the game). Also, organizations would have such a high turnover that they would play less of a role in the game. If the organization founder can die and leave the organization at any time, how are new members invited? How are the funds of the organization maintained? Without strong lasting organizations, there are also less large projects undertaken (less incentive to build strongholds or other improvements).

--zzorn 19:36, 12 March 2006 (CET)

First of all, I don't see why the contacts list would be lost. I doubt there's enough roleplaying in ORPGs to have nice players play annoying characters, so it's a safe bet your contact list will be on player level, anyway. Also, if death is permanent, people will be more careful with their characters. Organization leaders could have guards that protect them.

KaiBlin 10:59, 14 March 2006 (CET)

Would be good then to have some per-player (not per-character) stats system. "How long did this player's chars live on average. How many did he have so far. Min/max lifespan." and so on. That would give other players a chance to evaluate an orgs leadership in regards to risk of org going down in flames before joining.

Agree on the "org leaders just need to (learn to) be extra careful". And a stats info system would help other players to see if that player is/was or not.

On the "not enough roleplaying"... sadly, I have to agree. Though I wonder if a game design cannot... help there. In that it encourages more roleplay. But the question is here: is the contacts list per-char or per-player? A game design question (hmm, maybe give the entries in the contacts list some indicators so it's clear if this is a "character" or a "player" contact. (Will add something to the CL page)

I said I'm opposed to permadeath (for reasons I made clear... I think). But I'm thinking... the Dragonrealms system I saw posted somewhere gave me some ideas. Some kind of permadeath with insurance... I'm actually toying with the idea. So, there'd be permadeath, but it wouldn't be hard to insure against it. But if you forgot, got lax... you can die, permanently. (And I'd probably lock names of permadied characters for some time, if not forever)

--Jae 13:14, 14 March 2006 (CET)

Agree with need for extra org leader security point.

I have a bad feeling about various kinds of permadeath insurances.. Feels like it'd devolve into a respawn system with permadeath for careless persons and newbies. Probably not the best climate. Probably it'd be better with an all or nothing approach in regards to permadeath.

--zzorn 18:12, 14 March 2006 (CET)

One game that a lot of people play that has permadeath is Diablo 2 Hardcore. But do we actually want to do a Diablo 2 style game? ;)

Anyway... I'm drifting towards a "permadeath might be interesting". But I'd want to impress the "this is deadly" on beginners very, very early on, without them dying, and that might be difficult. (I'd certainly lock names of dead characters, at least for a while).

In The Lost Worlds I'm thinking about a cloning system... yep, no permadeath. But you only get back to where you last "saved". Not like AO, where you only lose XP (which goes to a pool anyway). Nope... ah, shucks, just check out The Lost Worlds#Death & Cloning if you like to know.

--Jae 12:55, 20 March 2006 (CET)

I don't think that any MMO should have permanent death. But then again, I understand that players should face penalties for biting off more than they can chew.

The following gets complicated, so please bear with me.

First, no attack should mean instant death; they all should be damage for the initial attack, and possibly, damage for lingering effects, which eventually stop. If a character has enough HP to survive, s/he survives.

If a character dies, the player has choices.

The first choice is that the player can create a whole new character. As a reminder, any player can forgo her/his existing character(s) by closing her/his account and creating a new one. The game should accept this and make it easy to do so, that is, players are able to do this without creating a new account; at any time, including death.

The second choice is to give players the ability to bring back their old characters, in whole or in part. All that follows is based on the character's experience points (XP). That's because players really, really care about XP, which is a reflection of their investment in the game. This discussion is about making players care about their decisions, that is, make them decide how to spend their XP.

The first decision (if the player wants to retain something of her/his previous character) is to have her/him Reincarnated. This can only happen if the character has XP in skills. If not, player has to create a new character. For every skill that the old character has, the new one can buy it at half price, up to the maximum level attained by the old character. After that it's one-for-one. For example, if a character dies with Lockpicking at [15], the progression of the new character is:

 [14/7] (from now on it's one-for-one)

where the first number is the effective skill level, and the second it the number of points spent to achieve it. For multiple reincarnations, the points spent (the second number) decides the maximum level of the old character. That is, if the first reincarnation achieved [16/9], the second reincarnated character has the progression of:

 [8/4] (from now on it's one-for-one)

The second decision is to have her/his character wait in Limbo. Waiting in Limbo will cost XP. The exact amount depends on the character's Piety (see below for a discussion of Piety). But, generally, the higher a character's Piety, the lower the cost of staying. The cost of staying is set for a 24 hour period, real time. Should a character's XP fall to zero (or can't make the next period payment), the player must create a new character. Should the player decides to leave Limbo, adjustments to her/his character has to be made based on the amount of XP spent. Exactly where the XP is subtracted is up to the player (and yes, XP and can subtracted from non-skill attributes first). If a player decides to leave Limbo, s/he can Reincarnate (with the XP s/he has left) or create a new character.

In Limbo, the player can try to get other players to help her/him. S/he can send Dreams, Visions, Presence, Messages, or Communications; each one costing more XP than the previous. Please note that players can send request outside of the game to beg their fellow players to help them. The above cost the originating player XP but, if accepted by the receiving player, increases hers/his Piety.

  • A Dream only happens when a character is asleep. That is, when the player puts her/his character to sleep, or when the player goes off-line. It is sent as an email to the player's account.
  • A Vision can happen at any time, even in the middle of a battle. That means the receiving player gets interrupted and has to press a key to skip the Vision (and hopefully get back to the battle before s/he is killed). The receiving player does not know who sent it, neither by character ID or player ID.
  • A Presence is a Vision where the receiving player is given the ID of the character sending the Vision (not the originating player, but her/his character's ID).
  • A Message is a piece of text sent to the receiving player. It has both the character's and player's ID. Its cost is a base value plus extra per glyph sent.
  • A Communication is a two way dialogue. Sending and receiving each glyph costs both PCs, the originator and receiver.

The point of all this is to get the player's character Resurrected, or at least, Reanimated.

By Resurrected, I mean that the character's soul gets reconnected to her/his body. This means, of course, that the body can live. In other words, whatever killed her/him has been dealt with. If not, a Heal or Restore has to be casted immediately to prevent another death. If s/he dies, another Resurrection and Heal/Restore. Of course, we (and by that I mean you, the GMs) have to decide how little body is needed to Resurrect/Heal/Restore. Beyond that, there's Reanimate.

Reanimate reconnects the soul to the body; even if the body is dead. This means any soul; not just the one that has inhabited before. If a body is reanimated, it is NOT alive. It is undead, or living dead, or a lich, or a demon; depending on the local culture. It cannot heal, neither naturally or by spell. It can be Restored, but it's still dead. It cannot gain XP, except by stealing it.

The living dead need blood to prevent their bodies for deteriorating. Blood from close relatives (parents, siblings, offspring) is the best. Blood form relatives (grandparents, uncles, aunt, cousins, nephews, nieces, grandchildren) is second best. Blood from the same Race is third best. All other blood is last.

The living dead can have two goals: Resurrect their bodies, or steal one.

The living dead prevent decay with blood. It is ingested, if they have a stomach and heart; or spread it over their bodies, both inside and out. Eventually because of lack of blood or inattentiveness, they deteriorate until there is little left but (dried) skin and bones. But that doesn't mean they are weak; they still have their strength and skills as when they were living. And finally, when their bodies are destroyed beyond all possibility, they become disembodied souls haunting the world as ghosts.

OK, this is complicated. But I think that there should be choice for the player even after death. And I kinda like the idea that PCs should try for something more than munchkin. With the above, players will build up their character's XP and Piety as an insurance policy against death.

And I kinda like the idea where a player has to decide if her/his player will become the living dead...and how to live again. With this system, undead have a stake in gameplay; they are not just there as monsters, they want to live again.

I did promise something about Piety. I don't think it should be a single number. After all, when we die, we are told that our good deeds are measured against our bad ones. In other words, Piety should be tracked by God(-dess) or Temple. The character's Piety should the the sum of her/his goodness minus the sum of her/his badness. Every Good deed should add to it, and every Bad deed, subtract.

--Goldhawk 04:30, 20 September 2007 (CEST)